fromturkey, Also, what I want to make clear is that people from Artsakh are Artsakhis. I do not see them as Armenian. They are an Armenian people ofcourse, but I cannot identify myself with them. Turkey and Azerbaijan often say that they are one nation with two states, but do you see Azeris as Turks? Azeris do not consider themselves Turkish either. This is the same with Artsakh and Armenia. For many Armenians it is hard to distinguish Azeris from Turks, and I think that you will find it hard to distinguish Artsakhis from Armenians. These two are two brotherly, however different nations. Also, I would not want Artsakh to become part of Armenia, unless they choose themselves to be part of Armenia. They should have their own state, because they have different interests and a different geopolitical, economical and cultural background. Anyhow, the very reference to Artsakh as 'they' by me and other Armenians, implies that we do not see them as Armenians, but as our brothers with the same language and religion. Personally I don't understand that Armenia is negotiating for Nagorno Karabakh. Armenia has no right to decide for Nagorno Karabakh. Just as Turkey, Armenia should not meddle in the conflict between Artsakh and Azerbaijan.

fromturkey, I think it is not correct to make a comparison between Nagorno Karabakh and Northern Cyprus or Nagorno Karabakh and Ossetia or Abkhazia. I agree, the borders of Azerbaijan are internationally recognized. The world was quick to recognize the newly independent countries. But this does not mean the borders that are drawn by the Russians are correct borders. Maybe Moscow would have decided to give both Armenia and Georgia to Azerbaijan before the collapse of the Soviet Union. After its collapse the world would have recognized the borders of Azerbaijan and it would politically be considered as part of Azerbaijan. With all due respect for the international law, I do not agree with this. And as we have learned from history, in the anarchic system of states who persue their self-interests, where there is no world government, the only way for states to achieve goals is by the use of force, may it be millitary, economic or political force. In international law the territorial integrity of states is more important than the right of self-determination. However, in cases where a group has suffered certain injustices, for which secession is the appropriate remedy of last resort, this group has a general right to secede. If the Armenians didn't do anything, today, there would be no Armenian living in the territory of Nagorno Karabakh and perhaps the cultural heritage would be gone too. What would the world or the international law do then? Nothing! Armenia and Russia are very close partners. We want Russians to be present in the area and we also welcome their military presence in Armenia. I would not use the word 'tool'. Armenia is a small country. All small countries need partners to help them and to protect them. This is how the system of states is. In this region, it is more advantageous to be pro-Russian. Azerbaijan is more important because it has something. It has oil and gas. If they did not have these recourses, perhaps the conflict would have been solved a long time ago. You keep saying occupation. Just as Erdogan keeps screaming genocide, genocide. In Armenian we have a saying about this kind of behaviour: It's like when the thief would scream: "Catch the thief, catch the thief!!!" What Turkey did in Cyprus in 1974 is occupation. If you call that an occupation, than Istanbul is a much bigger occupation. What Karabekir did is occupation and what Turkey did in 1974 is occupation. Turkey should look up on its history and see the number of vast occupied lands that it is built on. Azerbaijan I do not even want to mention. Even if there were no 'historic' claims, the Artsakh Armenians had to secure their safety. This was, by having a direct border with Armenia. They were constantly attacked with Azeri bombardments. What should they had to do? So from this point of view, don't you agree that they had the right to military actions to make an end to the constant attacks on civilians. If you want to call that occupation, that call it that way, at least those brave people were able to protect themselves and they won land.

Azerbaijan's advantegous position is because its officially recognized borders are under occupation. If countries accept this status-quo they should also accept the status-quo with North Cyprus. Also this will lead to problems with the cases of Ossetia, Abkhazia. Also Armenia is the most important tool for Russians to control Caucasia. Azerbaijan is much more important figure than Armenia. Also there are more than 600.000 refugees. International community has to care them. And believe me nobody cares (and shouldnt care) about the "historical" claims used to justify occupation of territories outside the Nagorno-Karabakh Oblast.

fromturkey, Yes I know! Azeris distinguish themselves by for example hating Armenians and also the Nagorno Karabakh war was the first time in their history where they were threatend and needed solidarity. We indeed, have a had national consciousness for a long time. This is natural: We have a unique language that is spoken only by Armenians, we have our own unique script, our church is the oldest independent church in the world, through the centuries we have survived and maintained our national identity, we have many old traditions, such as Vardavar and Trndez. Why do you think that Azerbaijan is winning the information war? For us it is something natural that those lands are ours, we do not need to stress that all the time. We want one thing. That is: to survive, to live and be the best and not to loose what is ours. I welcome all Turks and, why not, Azeris too, to come and visit Armenia and experience our ancient spirit and our unknown hospitality. For us, a guest comes from God. You are welcome!

I mentioned Nakhchivan because you talked about it. I know that Azerbaijan is worse. And I tell the facts to Azeris also, most of which they dont like to hear. Azeris need more propaganda, because Armenians are an old nation, also with more than 100 years national consciousness. Azeris became a nation by the Karabakh war. One of them used these words while I was discussing with him:"Thanks to Armenians, they taught us to be a nation and act as a nation."

If we misuse history, the only way we can misuse it, is by not saying that we did anything wrong or that we killed many Azeris or Turks. Azeris, however, can misuse history by claiming that the lands they live on, were always theirs, that they are one of the oldest peoples living there. Also exclusion of Armenians from history is also a way to misuse history for them. I do not know why you mentioned Nakhijevan and what your intention was, but I think you and I know the history of Nakhijevan very well. Azeris use propaganda. Compared to their propaganda, you cannot even call the actions of the Armenian side propaganda. For example we do not have anything of this kind about Azerbaijan : http://blogian.hayastan.com/2007/04/29/hate-in-art-touring-worst-of-anti-armenianism/ Also, we do not finance misinformation and falsyfication of history. In Azerbaijan this practises receive government support. Both Armenia and Azerbaijan are not democratic, but compared to Azerbaijan, Armenia is more democratic and Armenia is considered a partly free country, while Azerbaijan is considered not free. Azeris do not need a visa or anything special if they would want to visit Armenia. However, if you have an Armenian stamp or an Armenian visa in your passport, you cannot enter Azerbaijan. These are the differences.

To Hayq on history of Nakhchivan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhchivan#Imperial_Russian_rule This article is a good short history lesson for all of us. All historical knowledge shows us how armenian and azeri propaganda misuse history.

fromturkey, Ofcourse the times were different, but I think you agree with me that the principle is the same. There were no human rights in the beginning of the 20th century either. Human rights started to develop only after the Holocaust. Azeris indeed also gave their blood, but they did not won. That is because Armenians were fighting for their lands, those lands bare the Armenian spirit. Azeris were stronger back then, they had more men, and they also got help from Russia. Armenia got mostly non-military help from Russia. The ARF does not claim lands according to the Treaty of Sevres, nor do other parties. They claim the lands that were part of the first Armenian Republic, with no border to the cost. You are right, the Black Sea cost with Trabzon was never an Armenian homeland. That is true. Dear friend, okay, you named the crimes Armenians commited against the Azeris in 1918 and during the war and the revenges in Western Armenia. We are just with few, you and the Azeris are with almost 100 million or so? Don't you think that we are doing a great job doing our best to survive and to exist, next to neighbours who wished we did not exist and who wished that there were no Armenians in the area?(Globally said) Ottomans were not a Turkish state? Ottoman is the name of a leader, the Empire was called after him. But his ethnicity was Turkish, wasn't it? So, I'm a bit confused. I know that it was an islamic state, but the leaders of the Empire were Turkic people. Anyhow, our position is that it does not matter to us to have Turkic neighbours, whether it is Turkey or Azerbaijan, but we don't want them to live there at our expense. Also, we can discuss for years and about every aspect, but Azeris have to realize that people of Artsakh will never agree to be put under the control of Baku again. Azerbaijan can say that Nagorno Karabakh will not become an independent state nor in 10, in 20 or in 100 years, but Nagorno Karabakh will not return to Azeri rule in 10, 20 or 100 years either. So the question is about how long it will take for the Azeri leadership to explain this to their people. Because the leaders already realize this. You also must not forget that it was Armenia who forced Azerbaijan to peace in 1994. This is when the war ended. I am for a peaceful settlement of this conflict. We both also agree that Artsakh should have international recognition as an independent state. I believe that this will be the only way to assure sustainable peace and stability in the region. Giving back land or making other consessions which will harm Artsakh and the security of the people of Artsakh, will eventually lead to another war. Also I am in favor of having friendly relations with Turkey, but I think we are not ready for it, because our market is too small. We cannot sell anything to Turkey, besides electricity and some other products. I also believe that eventually we can become very good neighbours, because Turkish people are very friendly, very kind and Turkish people can be very loyal friends.

"Turks won lands from Armenians and thus they have the right to those lands. This is the situation: Turks win lands that were never theirs and have now the right to those lands." Hayq, what you forget is that Ottomans were not a Turkish state till 19th century, it was an islam state. Most of the Turks living in Western Armenia were alevis and they treated them much worse than they did to Armenians. Also since most of the Turks (both sunnis and alevis) were nomadic till the 16-17th century (that means they didnt pay regular taxes) and rebelled many times against the authorities. They were massacred in mass numbers and forced to settle new places. If the Mongols did not force Turkic tribes to leave Central Asia, there would not be a mass Turkic migration to Anatolia, Caucasia and Iran.

Hayq, The battle of Manzikert took place 938 years ago while the Karabakh war 15-20 years ago. It is really nonsense that you compare those two, because armenian and azeri ppl facing the war are still alive, many of them in refugee camps in poor conditions. Also, in 1071 there was no human rgihts there was no international community, there was no rights. It is meaningless to discuss the results of Battle of Manzikert now. However the results of Karabakh war and Armenian genocide should be discussed and solved. Azeris also gave their blood for Karabakh. They lost 30.000 while Armenians lost 6.000. If we simply say 30 > 6, it will also be unlogical. The Kars treaty was not signed by Turkey and Armenia yes, but Treaty of Sevres (which ARF and many use for their territorial claims) was also not signed by Turkey and Armenia. By the way Treaty of Sevres was not based on reality, because Armenians were a minority in "western armenia" in 23 April 1915 and before Hamidian Massacres. Also the black sea coast east to Trabzon (granted to Armenia by Sevres) was never Armenian homeland. Turkey should also give back the territories she occupied in Cyprus, with the condition of a fair peace. Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan should be allowed to return their homes. If we come to crimes of Armenia, to kill civilians in wars (both in 1918 war with Azerbaijan (ethnic cleansing of Tatar(Azeri) villages and Karabakh War (Khojali Massacre)) and to force 600.000 ppl to leave their homes is of course a crime. Also the Armenian revenges in eastern Anatolia in 1917-1918 are war crimes against civilians. Are you kidding?

fromturkey, Ofcourse Armenians would not accept it. Would you accept it, living in your own country where the majority is Armenian or Greek? Let us be reasonable and think logically my friend. Even if those surrounding regions that were given to Azerbaijan together with Nagorno Karabakh, were not Armenian at all, Armenians have fought for those lands. They have given their blood for those lands and they have liberated them. Be honest, would you find it healthy if Armenians would give those lands back? It is not close to common sense, is it? The current borders of the Caucasus countries are drawn by Russians. Armenians see those lands surrounding Nagorno Karabakh as liberated lands. Those lands, together with the territory of Nagorno Karabakh were part of independent Armenia, before Armenia became part of the Soviet Union. Even Azerbaijan had recognized those territories as part of Armenia. When I say that I can write a book about inhumanities caused by Turkic people, I do not mean you personally, I mean your countries as a whole. Not individuals. What are the crimes of Armenia? Can you elaborate on that? Is fighting for your existence a crime? Is protecting your lands a crime? During a war, if you don't kill, ofcourse the enemy is going to kill you. I agree with you that some countries use 'historic lands' stuff, to justify their tyranny. Whether Armenia is a tyranny or a democracy, the question of historic lands is an issue that will always remain. Armenia would not have a much different foreign policy whether if it would be a full democracy, a dictatorship or a communist state. And I do not understand your logics. You mention the battle of Manzikert, so the Turks won lands from Armenians and thus they have the right to those lands. This is the situation: Turks win lands that were never theirs and have now the right to those lands. Armenians fight for lands that were theirs but were stolen from them by some foreign power, and win them back. Does it matter that Manzikert was centuries ago and the Artsakh issue is more recent? The principle is the same. You fight for lands, you win them, and then it is yours. What do you think about this? The Treaty of Kars is signed by Turkey and Russia, without Armenia. So how or why should we recognize a treaty that was signed behind our back? If I sign a treaty for you with someone else and then tell you to accept it, would you accept it? Also I find it really inappropriate that you mention giving lands back, while Turkey is still occupying a sovereign country. The Turks that live in Cyprus, is the same as Turks living in Germany, Greece or Belgium. Greeks were there first, the Turks came later. In Germany, the Germans were there first, the Turks came later. According to Turkish logic, in some 200 years Turks can claim some parts of Germany where they will make up the majority. They would call it the land of the grandfathers and the land where they were born. This is not right my friend. Also, if the Azeri refugees are allowed to come back to Artsakh, Armenians from Baku, Sumgait and other cities of Azerbaijan should be allowed to come back to their homes too. Do you agree with me?

First of all, if those 580.000-640.000 azeris return their homes armenians (138.000 ppl by 2007) will become a minority. So, Armenians can not accept this. Also, armenians talk about self-independence of Karabakh people. This is a right principle and Karabakh Armenians have this right. But as far as I know the 7 surrounding rayons of azerbaijan are not included within the borders of Nagorno-Karabakh declared before the war. I want to learn if armenians see those rayons surrounding karabakh as a war bonus, or an advantage in negotiations with azerbaijan, or they repeat the "historical land" stuff. Hayq, you can not suggest me anything on what is humane and what is not, becuase you donot know me personally. The crimes of Ottoman Turkey and Azerbaijan can not be used to justify the crimes of Armenia, and vice versa. Get this straight first. when it comes to your "historicall land" stuff, this is a great balloon and propaganda which most states use including Azerbaijan and Armenia. This is a good way to sleep their public and justifying their crimes and continuing their tyranny. Armenians live here at least 2500 years and turks 900 years (since the battle of Manzikert). And you can not simply say 2500 > 900. Armenia should recognize Kars Treaty and current border with Turkey, Karabakh must be independent with the security guarantee of Karabakh Azeris, and 7 surrounding rayons should be given back to Azerbaijan.

Besides, I think that Turkey would help Azerbaijan more if it helpes Azerbaijan to understand and to see the facts and the existing realities.

fromturkey, My personal opinion is that those refugees can return to their homes, however they will have to become NKR citizens in order to live there and they have to respect the NKR Constitution. The basis for a statehood is set in Nagorno Karabakh and it is a matter of time that others see the reality and accept it. People of Nagorno Karabakh want to live in freedom, they want to decide their own future, they don't want neither Azerbaijan or any other country to decide for them. This is a basic human element. The liberated lands you mentioned about were and are Armenian by origin. Also, more recently in the beginning of the 20th century those lands were part of the Armenian Republic before Armenia became part of the Soviet Union. When becoming part of the Soviet Empire, Stalin gave the area of Nagorno Karabakh and Nakhijevan to Azerbaijan, because he thought that Turkey wanted to become socialist too and because oil and gas interests. So those lands were stolen from us. We have fought for those lands and won them back. What do you have to say? I would like to suggest to you to rethink about what you write and the words that you choose to write. I would like to suggest not to discuss about what is humane and what is not, because I can write a book for you about inhumanities caused by Turkic people. If Turkey continues with its xenophobic, fascist and nationalistic attitude, you will not have any respect from either your neighbours or the rest of the world. And do not tell me that you don't need it, because respect you have to receive from others. Every country has respect for itself. You are a superpower and a regional power, you should work to engage with your neighbours and to make them your friends and family and not alienate them and make them feel threatend.

Can one please tell me, why the 600.000 azerbaijani refugees shouldnt return back to their homes? Also, do you really believe that the azeris shouldnt live in qalbajar,fizuli,aghdam,cebrayil,lachin (all azeri and kurd populated before the war) only because those places are populated by armenians in medieval ages? Do you think that this is better than Turkish state propaganda? Do you think it is humane? NOTE:Till know noone here dared to answer my questions, all escaped and told unrelated stuff. This time I expect sth reasonable.

Havgeet Em, To think that criticizing your own country and people is an act of betrayal, is just immature. I can´t find another word to describe it. Im not living in Armenia. I hear what Armenians from Armenia say and it really hurts me. Because I am angry that so many Armenians, including me, are living in good circumstances in other countries, while in their own country they are treated as strangers. I have family in Armenia. They are literally fighting to survive. Ofcourse the country is in a very hard situation: economic blockade by both Turkey and Azerbaijan, threatend by Azerbaijan with another war, high dependance on Georgia, etc. But these factors do not hinder Armenia to make a viable situation for its own people. To help its own people. I think you agree with me. If you are not able to criticize the current situation in our country, you should change your artificial ´patriotic´ attitude. Armenia deserves better than Serzh Sargsyan or Levon Ter-Petrosyan.

As an outsider , I know only one thing . This is Armenia's golden chance to shoot down two enemies with one stone and clearly it seems that a chess playing nation like Armenia , refuses to understand and undertake a move that is not only strategic for the groups trying to the tie the situation , but for Armenia alone . It is one of those rare moments in Armenian history where a strategically placed argument will settle all the dust around it . The super-powers have already spotted it , but it seems Armenia , does not want to smell money in its house hold .

Hayq...clearly, you are one of them. Change your attitude before asking others the change (what you percieve) to be theirs. Havgeet Em!

Suren, I understand your concern. But I am not surprised either that there are so many Armenians who begin to hate their own people and their own country. Even without Azerbaijan or Turkey, Armenians in Armenia with their jungle mentality would destroy each other just for money or power. There is no moral in Armenia, no sence of patriotism. People do not think: let's help our compatriots, if I have something my fellow Armenians needs to have it too. There is no such thing. At this moment Armenians in Armenia, manavand ayd trqatsatz Artsakhtsinere, are worse for Armenians than either Turks or Azeris.

Armen, the only way to guarentee an armenian millitary loss, is by NOT fighting when attacked. Defeatists like you might as well put on an Azeri uniform and stand guard, because you have no place in Armenia. Havgeet Em!

Armen the term spies can be used as metaphor, I hope that you are not a spy, but are you a real patriot?. and education level started to drop after your favorite president took the post. All I am saying from your comments there is more hate on Armenia than on Azeri side, which is obscure.

Also, I do not believe that Azerbaijan would endanger its economic importance, being an oil rich country, and go into a war. Also the great powers would not allow this, because another war in the Caucasus would be harmful for them too. And even IF, our eastern neighbours decide to attack Artsakh and take it, Artsakh is and will always be Armenian-Christian, nomatter whether under the control of Azeris, Tatars or Uzbeks.

Let us suggest that Azerbaijan tries to occupy our Armenian and Christian lands by force. First of all, in the beginning of the war Azerbaijan was stronger than Armenia too. Armenia did not have any advantages back in the 1990s. Second of all, let us suggest: Azerbaijan attacks and wins a war against Armenia. Artsakh will be under the control of Azerbaijan. Lets say the issue will be solved with that. Russia loses its only partner in the Caucasus. Azerbaijan will continue to seek membership in the NATO and so will Armenia eventually. So, it's up to Russia, whether they are willing to loose Armenia or not just for Azeri oil and gas. The only thing that can save Armenia is legitimacy. If Sargsyan resigns peacefully, it will enhance the image of Armenia. Therefore, at this moment, not Azerbaijan is the most dangerous issue for Armenia, but Armenia's own leader. Personally I believe that if we had a woman president, it would be very advantageous for us from a psychological point of view.

NO DEAL YESTERDAY AND NALBANDIAN STATED THAT NOTHING WILL BE SIGNED WITHOUT KARABAGH"S REPRERSENTATION...

Si viz pacem... para bellum! If you wish peace... prepare for war! The dynamics of an attack by azerbaijan will be more then what many simply argue. We must be ready to support a media campaign as well. Everyone, whether in the diaspora or Armenian citizens must make preparations.

All Azerbaijan has to do now is get the “timing” right. What Armenians have to understand is this: Serj Sarkisyan between now and the end of his mandate is going to get weaker and weaker. He is going to get more and more isolated. On the national level he will only be surrounded by a few hooligans and on the international level Armenia is already isolated. Armenia has just contracted a lot of debt. I think people don’t realize what that means. They see debt as a ‘venture investment’ or a ‘donation’. Debt has to be paid back!!!!!!!!!!!!! Armenia will almost certainly default and ask to reschedule the debt… With the crisis deepening in about one to two years time taking away Karabagh will be like taking away a candy from a child. Message for SS: Wake up! Clean up the country or resign and let someone else have a go at it.

"Armen national unity and spirit has been weakened because of unpatriotic spies of your nature. " There a lot of people like you, Suren, in Armenia who see 'spies', ghosts and spirits around. I think the only thing that reflects is that the level of education in Armenia has dropped too severely.

I dont think that anyone really knows what the Armenian Army has hidden in the mountains of Karabagh just waiting for an Azeri offensive. If anyone has been to Karabagh you will notice it is a mountain range. Anything to the east and south (Agdam, occupied territories) is flat land. If the Armenian Army wasn't prepared than why have the Azeris not launched an attack? You can not win a war with drones and fighter planes. Infantry alone can full fill total victory. Defensively, Armenia is at an advantage.

The ‘national’ unity and spirit has never been so weak in Armenia and apathetic. The Azeri know that and will assess the best moment to attack. When they do, let’s face it, no one in Armenia or Diaspora will move to save Karabagh. - Armen national unity and spirit has been weakened because of unpatriotic spies of your nature. because when Levon appeared people forgot the past and started soluting to the real oligarch and dictator.

Indeed, these 'peace' talks are a clear distraction. Armenia needs to start preparing for a new Azeri aggression. This will be a new kind of war, and Armenia should be ready. This means restoring military balance among other things. Unfortunately, Armenia is already getting behind in some key areas. Armenian air force is a joke compared to Azeri one (no fighter jets, no high precision attack weapons). Karabakh's air defense might not be effective against the 4-th generation fighter jets Azerbaijan has now. Azeris are buying APCs and tanks by hundreds every year, and pilotless spy drones from Israel. Azeris are preparing for a modern, NATO-style war, probably following advice from Turkey.

Let me tell everyone what will happen: Azerbaijan's military budget has skyrocketed over the last decade. They are getting military aid from Turkey and Israel as I type this comment. Azerbaijan is preparing for war. Once they are ready they will attack. ‘Talks’ have nothing to do with the agenda at hand. Armenia’s corrupt regime is: busy stealing; assassinating, putting war heroes in prison and persecuting them, covering up the slaughter of its own soldiers by its officers, killing journalists, … The ‘national’ unity and spirit has never been so weak in Armenia and apathetic. The Azeri know that and will assess the best moment to attack. When they do, let’s face it, no one in Armenia or Diaspora will move to save Karabagh. This is the most probable scenario. So, here is a well-known advise to our untalented and useless President Serj Sarkisyan: ‘If you want peace, then prepare for war’.