Grigor, I wanna thank you for your intelligent and balanced comments. We have also many ppl like Sevak here. They start to tell me that I cant be a Turk or I am of mixed race. I think you serve your ppl much better, exactly as I believe I do. Armenians and Turks are two traumatic and sick nations shaped by taboos, prejudices, hatred. Thanks to Armenianow, we have a good channel for dialog. To Tashnak: A tashak remains tashnak, hate profiteers.

I found some time to take on the debate here. I would like to respond to Sevak's comment. First and foremost, people have to be able to read and understand. As soon as some people read a word that is against the current widely held position people start concluding that the one not subscribing to it is a Turk. There are many problems with this. First of all, what is wrong with being a Turk (TO ARMENIANOW: you should really edit it, it really looks bad for you, for many reasons, it is just a disgusting way of insulting someone, ethnicity should never be considered insulting by anyone, and any newspaper allowing such comments supports racism. In my opinion, this is worst than allowing slang which for some unknown reason you don't. Anyway, looks really bad for you.)? Secondly, such a mentality is the reason that our Armenia doesn't have a free society because no one is allowed to deviate, as soon as you do that you are traitor. Secondly, desiring a collapse of any country is a Hitlerian mentality, one that ``innocent" Armenians should never advocate. Such a collapse will create many devastating situations, from starving people to opportunists trying to get into the power: we are well aware of what can happen after such collapses, just look at USSR. This is not something that anyone with an evolved human heart should desire, and I am completely against the collapse of Turkey. Now, your post contains many self-contradictory claims. The only way that your vision for the future makes sense is if you (and this goes for all people with similar opinion) can put forward a plan that shows clearly how we are going to get these lands back from Turkey, what are we going to do with them and some timetable. The plan, as I understand, is a sentimental one with no timetable whatsoever, which includes convincing the American government to accept the genocide, then get world wide recognition and then start suing. American government will never accept the genocide claim, it will just not happen unless we and Turks reconcile and its importance for Turkey diminishes. Without expanding on this, this strategy just looks like committing the same mistake billion times in a raw. If this is the road people like you propose then we have been testing it for a long long time and it is time for something new and more humanitarian. After all we are just making the political process more evil by pumping money into lobbyist's pockets. Your claim about GDP of Turkey, their agriculture and our imports just makes no sense to me. It is interesting that someone stating such things isn't considered to be a traitor just because at the end there is a call for the destruction of Turkey. Dear Sevak, if we are in such a horrible situation that you have described with no plan, real plan (not a dream) of getting these lands back from Turkey, then it is just inhuman to desire for the borders to be closed. We cannot continue importing all these things from Turkey via Georgia when there is a direct route. We cannot, just cannot, let our people take the hardship of living in that small isolated country just because we have a dream that one day Turkey will collapse and we will win. It is just, inhuman,- and do take a moment to comprehend the meaning of the word ``inhuman",- there is just no other word that I can find for it. All diaspora people desiring closed borders should go and live in Armenia, otherwise your claims and opinions carry no weight. Sadly there are too many people who devoted their lives to a dream instead of making real changes, and that is why when real changes come people cannot let their dreams go and actually see that the world is moving towards no borders, no borders, that is how it will be in 50 years and then your claims for lands will just look ridiculous.

hayorty, To our knowledge your comments have not been deleted. Please post again so that we may post them if appropriate. Perhaps there is a technical glitch. Thanks for reading.

Armenianow. For the second time i'm asking you,why some of my comments are not posted/published?.My comments do not contain any slander or offensive language at all.Instead for several times I read some offensive words or phrases like bnakalez,edebsiz,oruspu cocugu,FU.etc.And I find replies including those words are not suitable to be seen here.Can Armenianow tell me why some of my comments were ignored??.I would like manvel read my reply to the comment he made,reply comment was sent about 6 hours ago.

I somewhat agree with Grigor. Armenians live in fairy tales. Do you really really think 3 million poor Armenians can extract anything from our powerful 70 million populated neighbor? Our only goal as a race at this point is to Preserve our current Armenia and Artsakh. I love my country and people more then anybody here. But its time we stop wasting our energy on Genocide recognition. WE know it happened and we will forever remember and mourn. But the best and most positive response we can give to the turkish tyrants is having a strong, unified, and democratic Armenia. If we continue with this same song, we will lose Artsakh and eventually Armenia. Do you really think anybody will move back to kurdish populated Armenia. I dont think so. People current Armenias population is shrinking!! Do you know how dangerous that is? Do you know we have no soldiers in 2009 because 18 years ago very few babies were born. Stop the nationalist bologne. We have only one goal now. CURRENT ARMENIA INCLUDING Artsakh. Other then that we are in the same pot as we were in 1915. I hope the outcome wont be the same. Keep dreaming people ....... and lose what we have now Start being realistic and we have a bright future.

Hey Girgor,There's a book out there called'The Israel Lobby'.Read it and quit yer giving us headache.

grigor! Either you need to know better about the army and the government Armenia had back then,or you're just anti-Dashnak,or...Sevak's comment is true.

This will be my last comment. Hayorty, you can claim the Wilsonian border as long as you wish and you will never get it. It is as simple as that. If anyone cared about Wilsonian borders than we would already have it. In fact we had it when people actually cared about it. We also had a strong army to defend these lands, but we blew it up because our dashnak government was partying day and night and because of other things. So lets not make the mistake we have been making for thousands and thousands of years. You probably don't understand what you, Hajorty, can do when borders are open. If you are planning to buy a house there you can do that, if you are planning to plant a tree there you can do that, if you are planning to sell raisins there then you can do that, if you are planning to build a MacDonalds there then you can do that. But if you are planning to demand Wilssonian borders than you cannot do that and on the top of it you will never get such borders. For hundred years or so, the western Armenians had exactly the same strategy for recognizing the genocide. It has produced very little and any nation today who wants to have good relations with Turkey very easily will claim whatever Turkey wants, just like Israel did recently. The only way you can achieve recognition of the genocide is by putting money into our community and not into the hands of lobbyists and politicians, the way it has been done in the west. There are very few scholarships for Armenians to go to college and continue into getting a PhD, there are very few Armenian professors in the universities, there are very few Armenian intellectuals that are on TV and etc. We are just as many as Jews but you see us less often than them. The only reason is that their community invests into their community while our community gives their millions to the congressman from California to talk about the Armenian genocide. Well, Jews achieved great things over the last couple of decades we have archived very little because of our obsession with the current strategy of getting the genocide recognized. So yes I am criticizing the western Armenians, because I don't feel like they really care about Armenians, it looks more like they care about American Congress recognizing the genocide rather than creating a strong Armenian community that will produce world leaders and then the world will just accept the genocide because there will be so many powerful people demanding its recognition. Anyway, do go on, I just really wanted to know what is going on, and now I understand that Dashnaks will be out of job after this and that is why they have been organizing all this nonsense.

When I hear from Diaspora Armenians demand for ancestral land in historic Western Armenia, but at the same time no one is rushing to settle liberated lands in Artsakh, it strikes me as empty wordiness. If only 5% of entire 5.7 million Armenian Diaspora goes and settles historic Armenian Lands in Artskah, Azerbaijan will have no choice but to recognize the fact of irreversibility Artsakh's independence.

i just read Grigor’s comments and i would not be surprised if he's actually a Turk posting on this site claiming to be Armenian. Regardless, for anyone who is hell bent against land rights and demands, lost by Armenians during dispossession and genocide, i would say to them that in civilized societies murder and theft have legal retributions regardless of its size and just like any other people or nations who have rights, so do Armenians and the only shameful and treacherous thing would be to give up those rights. To answer the question of who’s gone live on that land, that has no relevance, land brings wealth creation and security. It is no surprise that Turkey today is one of the largest agricultural producers in the world contributing heavily to its large GDP, while Armenia has to import wheat, milk and meat to meet the basic food needs of its population. Armenia’s largely mountainous terrain and minimal flat lands puts it at a disadvantage for large scale, low priced but important commodities such wheat and animal feed growth. By keeping hope alive and working toward what we lost, we can be successful. Turkey today is a country kept intact by fascist brain washing of its population and its nearly half Kurdish population is bound to explode under lack of freedoms and eye on sovereignty. The pressure must be kept on Turkey from all sides, and in due time they will collapse.

grigor and why should'nt we recognize iran's or other countrey's borders?.in the last thousand years or so,maps and borders have been changed for many times,what armenians are claiming is the wilsonian border after the ww1 wich was recognized by europe,usa,russia and even turkey,and YES these are OUR LANDS. Would you think the same way if soviet communists claim part of present eastern armenian lands as russian,after the communism collapsed.I DON'T THINK SO.What the armenianow readers see in your comment(s) nothing but critisizing the Western Armenia and the Genocide.

Shant, I am sorry I don't get it, should we also not recognize Iran's existing borders as a lot of it used to be ours, in fact, why don't we look at the map of 1 AD and not recognize anything that belonged to us but belongs to others now. Lets claim a Mediterranean coast, and in fact, demand that they have to create a state called Kilikia because there is a great injustice done in the world, how could anyone destroy that amazing kingdom. Now, as a nation we are very naive and nationalistic, something that progressive nations forgot long time ago. If you want genocide recognition put money into higher education and produce progressive intellectuals not lobbyists who have been wasting millions on all kinds of nonsense. Or open up the borders and start investing money in those lands that Turkey really doesn't know what to do with. Lastly, Mr Shant, if you want lands then we got one, Artsagh, that we are about to lose. So why don't you take your nationalism of 1900s with you to this little village and establish a residency their, in fact all those who demand lands from Turkey must first of all go and establish a residency in Artsagh. Failure to do this makes your nationalistic remarks look rather ridiculous. There is no guarantee that anyone will ever do anything with these lands that you will get back from Turkey billion years later as a result of martians invasion of Turkey and who will then decide to give western Armenia as a gift to the world's greatest nation, Armenians.

Grigor, Armenia can recognize Turkey's territorial integrity without recognizing the existing borders, which Armenia never has as an independent country. Many countries today still have not recognized each other’s borders, yet have normal diplomatic relations (ie: Armenia and Georgia). Turkey is forcing Armenia to recognize the exact borders, in order to remove Armenia's claim to land which was taken away from Armenia by a genocide. The historical commission to study the history for an unlimited amount of time, is a successful ploy by Turkey to get genocide recognition off the table of foreign countries as they did during TARC. How can any Armenian be so naive to think these preconditions are for anything else but to achieve Turkey's demands of putting aside genocide responsibility and Armenia's land rights.

Dear John, It turns out that it is indeed easy to find the text of these protocols. I now have no idea why people are so against these protocols. Well, the only problematic thing that is in the protocols that people keep bringing up is this line, I guess. Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law, There is nothing on Karabach and there is nothing direct on genocide. There is this line which is close - the sub-commission on the historical dimension to implement a dialogue with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations, in which Armenian , Turkish as well as Swiss and other international experts shall take part. at the latest 1 month after the first meeting of the intergovernmental commission But this is something that Turkey has to do. We are not asked to say that there was no genocide and things like this. So it is essentially that we are supposed to recognize that what is Turkey on the map is really Turkey. Hey people shake yourself up, this is the 21st century, perhaps people need to read world history before getting panicked. For instance, the complications that exist between Balkan nations is far more complex than what we got with Turkey. If they can let it all go why cannot we? If Germany and France could let it go why cannot we? If the borders are open then all these people who want those lands back can actually go and get them back by starting business and etc. I don't know, it looks to me that there is a group of people who might be out of job after we get normal relationship with Turkey. Look, the world is moving towards no borders, we have to catch up with it.

Andranik: Just to be clear (for the Assembly's sake and for ours), ArmeniaNow is not an affiliate of the Armenian Assembly of America. Thanks for reading.

Looks like this article has been copied and pasted here from an Azeri site. Who wrote this piece of useless propaganda against the acting president? They call it free and independent media when it suites their agenda. And the agenda of this article to convince Armenians that we need to loose and make one-sided concessions.

we have to give credit where credit is due, i was one who didn't think armenianow would objectively cover the overwhelming outcry against the protocols, because armenianow is an affiliate of the armenain assembly which is believed by many to be a rubber stamp organization for the US state department and supports the protocols. The Armenianow coverage has been outstanding by including both sides, it just so happens that those against the protocols are clearly in the majority.

Dear Grigor and Stepan You are right that the bulk of our and everyone else's reporting has been on reactions to the protocols. That's because those articles are driven by the news of the day. If we reflect a "negative" attitude, it is nonetheless an attitude determined by prevailing facts. You make a good point about confusion. We all wish for more clarity -- which should have come from the beginning. Instead there has been considerable difference between what authorities tell us (i.e. no Karabakh-related preconditions) and what exist in reality (i.e. statements by the Turkish PM). Finally, you may assess the facts of the protocol by accessing them in the archive of this website and others. To Stepan: ArmeniaNow represents the interests of readers who wish for a media that is not controlled by political party nor institutional bias. Thanks for reading.

Dear John, I have been reading and I agree with mb. You mostly show negative criticism of the government in this matter. Is there really no one who can defend the governments position on the matter the way, say, you or Raffi Hovhanisyan, criticize it? The point is that maybe indeed the government's position is a bad one, but there are those of us out here who have no idea what is in the protocols and we can only read one side saying it is perfect and the other side saying it is horrible. I don't know about mb, but speaking for myself, I don't want an opinion I want facts. Most of the readers are well capable of forming their own opinions once the facts are given. So far, I have no way of accessing the facts, just a mountain of opinions that don't converge. Yes, true government is not open but in all fairness the media only makes the matter more confusing. We sort of have to choose to believe either x or y and in all fairness x and y look exactly the same. It would be nice if media could somehow make a distinction between x and y, failure to do so just confirms already well taken point that x and y are exactly the same. Hence, you get comments like mine and mb's. Confusion is the key word in all of this.

Mr. John Hughes, You are talking about independent media, independent newspaper and other independences which does not exist in my opinion. It is not clear for me who's interests are you representing in Armenia?

MB: Editorials, by their nature, take a position. The mark of an "independent" media is whether it applies its criticism fairly, based on an informed point of view. Our independence is to be measure not on a single position but by whether we have offered praise of political powers when it is called for, and have taken exception when we feel the best interests of common Armenians is not represented. We believe we meet that standard. Thanks for reading.

to the editor How you call yourself independent news and yet your comment is biased against the president who is the underdog right now